Debi Nova: Everything Can Become a Song (Listening for Harmony in the Costa Rican Wilderness) | Transcript
Listen and watch the episode here.
Costa Rican star Debi Nova joins field biologist and Re:wild’s Mesoamerica Director Esteban Brenes-Mora for our first-ever Central American taping. Recorded in Tamarindo, Costa Rica, the conversation centers on Debi’s album Todo Puede Convertirse en Canción (“Everything Can Become a Song”), exploring the challenges and gifts of rewilding, what drives Costa Rica’s remarkable biodiversity, Debi’s impression of the Judas bird—the Cristofué (“it was Christ”)—the bathroom habits of tapirs, and what it means to find balance and coexistence between humans, animals, and the ecosystems we share.
Matt Whyte
Today's episode was recorded in Tamarindo, Costa Rica on April 7th, 2026. Please be sure to check out our other episodes, including one with Sheila E and Mexican neuroscientist Doctor Hugo Merchant. Don't forget to click subscribe and please rate the show on your podcast platform of choice.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Music came from the from the sounds of nature. You know, like birds are singing the trees. When the rain is falling. They're making a special sound. You realize that the peace you feel in nature is related, and the way your senses are interacting with nature, the same way your stress in the city. And so it really brings you down.
And then also in my line of work, I have to identify those tangible but not tangible effects of nature.
Debi Nova’s “20/20” Plays
Suena Stevie a mi alrededor
I just called to say I love you, mi amor
Vente conmigo que ya pasó el temblor
Quisiera darte en un segundo
Un universo de infinitas posibilidades
Todo aquí se vale, todo aquí se vale
Y vale tanto la vida
Para ir siempre tan deprisa, cágate de risa
Todo aquí se vale, todo aquí se vale
Matt Whyte
Welcome to sing for science, the show where musicians and scientists talk about music and science. I'm your host, Matt Whyte. Each week we'll talk about a song by our guest artist and how it connects with our guest scientists area of expertise. Today, we'll be chatting with one of Costa Rica's most distinctive voices in music. Debi Nova Debi is a Latin Grammy winner and Grammy nominee whose career is inextricably linked to her identity as a Costa Rican.
Matt Whyte
Her latest album, Todo Puede Convertirse en Canción or Everything Can Become a Song suggests that even the noise of our daily lives can be transformed into meaning. That idea reappears in the opening track “20/20.” A song about seeing the world with renewed clarity and finding harmony in the seemingly discordant. Also joining us is Costa Rican field biologist and senior Mesoamerica leader for rewild.
Esteban Brenes-Mora. Esteban's work focuses on rewilding, restoring ecosystems in ways that allow nature to regain its own balance and complexity. But just as importantly, his work models what it looks like for humans to be part of that system, not dominating it, but coexisting in a way that creates mutual benefit. The title of this week's episode on the podcast is Everything Can Become a Song listening for harmony in the Costa Rican wilderness.
Hello, Debi and Esteban.
Debi Nova
Hi. Thank you for having us.
Matt Whyte
So the part of the song that jumped out at me first, not just because it's sung in English part of it, anyway, is where you invoke Stevie Wonder and the line is, I think you're saying that Stevie Wonder is playing. Stevie is playing all around me. And what struck me is that that lyric tells me just as much about your state of mind, or what I can assume it is as, as it does what you're listening to.
And I got to thinking about how like it's, it's mysterious but also intuitive. What is it about Stevie Wonder that has this like palliative effect on all of us.
Debi Nova
When you said can we talk a minute about Stevie Wonder? I was like, I don't know if a minute is going to be enough. Yes. Stevie Wonder for me is, I mean, inspiration is is comfort. I actually have one album. It's music of My mind, the Stevie Wonder album. Music of my mind that I listen to every time that I'm nervous.
Like, if I'm preparing for a big show or anything that makes me uneasy in my body. I listen to that album and the answer is, I don't know why. I don't know why. There is something that happens to me with certain chord changes and certain, melodic lines on top of certain chord changes that create very particular sensations in my body.
And Stevie Wonder is the king of that for me. I mean, it's something so, so special and so mysterious. Like you said, I don't think. I don't think it has an explanation. Yeah.
Matt Whyte
Yeah, it is mysterious. And and I think it it crosses, demographic. It crosses age group. I have five and eight year old daughters. Whenever they are being difficult or ill tempered in the morning before school, if I put on songs in the Key of Life and don't draw attention to it, everybody chills out real quick.
Debi Nova
I'm going to try that.
Matt Whyte
You got to do it.
Okay, so let's zoom out a little bit. What is the primary message of this song?
Debi Nova
So veinte veinte which is 2020 vision not 2020 the year. Yeah. Is the first song on the album. And as you say, my album is called competitive and everything and anything can turn into a song. So for me, that song, when I was writing it, it was about leaving what doesn't serve me behind. It was about, quieting the noise in my head and being present for what is, because I think the only way I can translate things into becoming a song is by being present.
Debi Nova
So it talks about reducing noise inside so that I can hear what's outside, like a Stevie Wonder song playing or, I don't know. It talks about laughter, it talks about other sounds and other emotions, that I can only be conscious of when when I have the space for it. So it was, in a sense, the declaration of wanting to be present.
Matt Whyte
I mean, we're listening to birdsong right now. Yeah. Either end of that song. It sounds like maybe a voice memo. Yes. So where were you? Because you hear birds. Where were you?
Debi Nova
I was actually here in Tamarindo. Yeah. And I wanted to start my album like that because that's the magic of a song. It happens out of nowhere, you know? It happens in the middle of of of the air. You know, you're painting with air. And so I wanted to start my album, tying it to the to the concept of anything and everything can turn in to a song.
I wanted to start it with a voice memo. It says a lot about, you know, where you are, that picture of five, the sound that's around you. Yeah.
Matt Whyte
So both of you, because of your visibility and stature in your respective fields, are kind of global ambassadors for this country. You both do a fair amount of traveling. And, when you come back home, what are the sounds you hear that seem unmistakably Costa Rican and where you feel like you're home?
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Well, you know, sometimes I live in a in the countryside. So for me, home sounds like birds. Howler monkeys, many insects. So that's where I feel comfortable, despite me growing in the city. When I when I moved back to when I go back to San Jose or to any big city, I just feel like really trapped. Like really not in my place.
So coming back home and having all the cicadas and all the howlers is how I feel. Interestingly, people who stay at our house, they get awakened by the birds and the howlers. For me, that's just white noise. So going back home, I would say, is just a mixture of a landscape, and it really awakens curiosity of what sounds and outside.
And, you know, there's a lot of questions to be asked when you start listening closer.
Debi Nova
I was actually asking Esteban about this bird, how you call it in English and Spanish. [...] because I grew up going to a place called Puntarenas in the Pacific, in the central Pacific coast of the country. And the [...] of that bird that we're hearing in the background, which we call Kiskadee.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Great, The Great Kiskadee
Debi Nova
Great kisskadee.- mimics bird call
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Cristo Fue , Cristo Fue
Matt Whyte
What does that mean?
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Like, it was Jesus. They call it the Judas bird because it's telling on Jesus.
Matt Whyte
Oh, wow. What did you just say?
Debi Nova
Cristo Fue
Matt Whyte
Oh Cristo.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
It was. It was the Christ. Yeah.
Debi Nova
But I remember that bird waking me up in the mornings and and feeling really excited to be at the beach. So that coupled with the sound of the ocean. Definitely. Definitely feels like home. But, I've been really curious about what Costa Rica sounds like for the last five years musically, because it's a very big question that doesn't have a specific answer.
And I read coincidentally in a book, not long ago that instead of having one identifiable genre of music, Costa Rica has diversity as its identity. And I thought that was really thinking about this. What we were going to talk about today. I was like, isn't it so interesting that even in music there is diversity, you know, and one of the most biodiverse countries in the world.
So for years as a Costa Rican musician, you're like, okay, where where do I come from? What do I do? How do I represent Costa Rica in the world? And, and it's always been a big question mark in my head. And finally, I, I thankfully read this in a book and I was like, oh, I feel like peace is no.
We embrace diversity as our identity. So I thought that was really, really cool.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Yeah. And and I feel like, you know, the Costa Rica music and science, I think, are two careers that there's a lot of talent in both science and arts and especially music. There's a lot of talent, but both are not as valued as they should be. So it's it's a challenge. At the same time, we have a lot of diversity, we have a lot of talent, but we are at that point where we can take it to the next level just by paying attention and and opening spaces and listening to those artists and those scientists that are emerging there.
Matt Whyte
I think Costa Rica, as an American, it's so famous for its dense concentration of biodiversity. So, like, what's to account for having such a rich representation of life in a relatively small space.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Woof, we can go for hours talking about why Costa Rica is so diverse. And, I'll just start by our position. You know, we were blessed by species from the north, species from the south. And then we have these mountain system right in the middle of the country that divide us in Caribbean and Pacific. You can climb some mountains in the Cordillera de Talamanca, and you'll see the Caribbean.
You turn around, you see the Pacific. But animals can not go across that. So that has created micro habitats. And we have a high percentage of biodiversity in relation to our small country. And then we have around the country little valleys with micro endemism, which are places with unique traits and unique biodiversity. There. And when we zoom out, we realize that our oceans are way larger than our terrestrial territories and we haven't even explored that that much.
You know, recently they they went really deep in the ocean and they came up with, I think, a bunch of new species of octopuses, and they found a place full of new life that is still unknown to science. So we are known for be mega diverse, around 6% of world's biodiversity that we know, and yet we haven't explored what's down there.
And, I feel when Debi was mentioning the title of her album, I was thinking in my mind, everything can be science as well. You know, everything.
Matt Whyte
Yeah.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
One of my professors, one of my mentors, Bernard, he used to tell me, whenever you run or run out of questions, go and talk to a five year old kid and he or she will be asking the right questions about the environment. And then you realize, you know, the little ant walking in the wall might have a lot of questions that can turn into a scientific, into a scientific process.
Debi Nova
Wow.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
So I really I really find that connection between between the song and the record and, the creative process behind science. I think that's what I mean. And, and in that context, full of biodiversity, I think is just the way to do it. And I guess it works the same for music, you know?
Debi Nova
Yeah. Curiosity for sure. Some kind of quest always, you know, talk about mystery. Songwriting is such a mystery.
Matt Whyte
Where does it come from?
Debi Nova
Where does it come from? But I think there's always I think it's life. I think it's that interconnectedness of whatever fuses this beautiful planet. I mean, it's it's all connected.
Matt Whyte
It is nature a muse for you. Does that inspire your process?
Debi Nova
Absolutely. I mean, I don't know if it's such a direct, you know, an in plain thing to say, like, oh, I sit in front of the ocean and, and I write a song about the ocean. It's it's not that. But I do think that nature allows me to to be present. It puts my nervous system in a place where I don't feel as distracted.
Because I think at the end of the day is it's how we fit in the nature. Yeah.
Matt Whyte
Well, it calls to mind you, you sent me an article about the W.H.O. kind of releasing this data about the impact of time spent in nature, what it can have on our our overall well-being. Right.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Yeah. I think, you know, music came from the from the sounds of nature, you know, like birds are singing the trees when the rain is falling, they're making a special sound. You realize that the peace you feel in nature is related in the way your senses are interacting with nature the same way your stress in the city. And so it really brings you down.
And then also in my line of work, I have to identify those tangible but not tangible effects of nature. You know, like we talk a lot about water coming from from nature. We talk a lot about oxygen. But then we didn't talk enough about the pride of being in a place that's preserved. We would not talk enough about the joy of being surrounded by monkeys, and then developing an identity around coming from a place that's mega diverse.
You know, Costa Ricans, they say we have a green DNA. I don't I don't really believe that. I think we are just so exposed to nature that we have developed our identity around that. And, I think that's that has to do a lot with the with how we feel, how well we feel, or how about we feel, you know, and, sadly, we are losing nature in a lot of places.
And what we have to understand is that if we lose nature, we're not only losing forest and species and water and oxygen and those essentials, but we're also feeling it, losing the opportunity of feeling, well, you know, we're losing the opportunity of waking up to the sound of birds. And I think one of the toughest jobs to do in, in biodiversity conservation is increasing the identity and the sense of belonging and ownership people have over nature.
And I think music, it's a great tool to achieve that. I feel like, you know, we all we have all being sad or happy listening to a song or we have been far away from home and we listen to a song and we go back. So the more we can connect music and art to nature, the more we can start rewilding our brains and then rewilding the planet.
I think that's that's my goal. I guess.
Debi Nova
That's beautiful. As I was listening to you, I was thinking of when I moved to the States when I was 17 years old. And that was the moment when I realized that I came from a special place. Before then, I didn't I didn't realize that, you know, going to Monteverde on a school field trip to study photosynthesis was actually really special, you know, because you were in one of the most biodiverse places in the world.
Matt Whyte
You moved to LA?
Debi Nova
I moved to Los Angeles, which is, still, you know.
Matt Whyte
It's mostly concrete, but you can see.
Debi Nova
There's still some, you know, air. Yeah. But it wasn't until I moved and I started saying, oh, I'm from Costa Rica and started reminiscing and missing that. I realized that I was from such a special place.
Matt Whyte
Don't you have a song that kind of resonates with what Esteban was talking about earlier with about getting out of the city? Is there a song you have a C? You died in the title?
Debi Nova
I actually my third album is called Gran Ciudad. that okay. Yeah, and I did it in Rio de Janeiro. And you know, Los Angeles. So yeah, big city and funnily enough, I have recorded a lot of my music in big cities, but I think that has to do with the accessibility and resources that, you know, now it's different now you can have a studio and record anywhere.
Debi Nova
Although my fifth album, because I'm on this quest of like, what Costa Rica sounds like, where what are my musical roots? When my great grandparents moved to Costa Rica, they moved to the Caribbean. The province is called Limon, and that's where my grandfather grew up, which is where the music comes from for me. My grandfather was a singer.
So I decided to go to Puerto Viejo, which is in Limon and set up, makeshift studio. And and that's where I wrote most of the stuff for my fifth album. And again, I was a little frustrated at the end of it because I was like, this doesn't sound like Costa Rican music, but what is Costa Rican music?
You know? But I did, I did record that in, in the Caribbean, and we have a lot of nature sounds in there. So in the Caribbean, the, the predominant music is calypso has a little bit of that too. Yeah. That exploration.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
You know what I was thinking, I, I always fantasize of a, of a world without nature. And now that you were saying, you know, like I, I recorded my record, you recorded your records in, in the city And I just picture, you know, we run out of nature and then we put back humans. How do we reinvent music.
That would be
Debi Nova
Without nature?
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Without nature. That would be super hard, you know, like without those sounds. And I think it's happening, you know, like people are not really realizing the, the, the cultural loss we're having when we turn forests into cattle pastures and we completely mute the forest, and we're eliminating all the all those benefits that nature is bringing.
Matt Whyte
I'm curious, how do you actually experiment for nature, nature's impact on our health?
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Yeah. Well, you know, I, I did with my students from the School of Public Health in the University of Costa Rica. We did a we did a trial and we were asking ourselves there, Cerro de la muerte in the highlands of Costa Rica, there's a community program protecting Quetzals which is one of the most beautiful birds in the earth.
Their habitat has been destroyed. And, yet a group of people led by local leaders, they have been placing nesting sites and and feeding sites and restoring the habitat. And, we started asking questions with Danny and Jose, who were the students, about what's the well-being associated for those families who are part of a program and, you know, the basic sense of belonging to a group that's trying to do something collectively for nature was already showing an impact over well-being.
And then when you start linking that, that nature can be translated into financial improvements, like through ecotourism or through sustainable forestry or through having a better place where your land increases price or where you just feel more proud. So the way we measure that is through indicators and that provide access to well-being. You know, like how well my education level has increased since I'm part of this process, how well my access to health has increased, and overall how I feel when it comes to the place I live, with myself, with my family.
So what we found is that even though they were not getting any direct benefits, financial benefits of being hosting tourists or anything, the idea of belonging to a group and the idea of outsiders valuing what they were doing around nature, increased the way they were feeling. And also for those who were already and are already getting benefits from tourism, they have now to worry less about farming over hours.
Or they have to worry less to find extra money for education because they already getting it from protecting nature. So there's a direct link on the way people protect nature and how preserved an ecosystem is and how well people live. In Guatemala, for example, I do work a lot Guatemala for me is probably one of the most shocking examples.
There's a community managed forests in Selva Maya, on the on the east side and on the west side. There's Laguna del Tigre national park. So there's a protected area supposedly with no people. So it's completely taken by cattle ranchers, and it's in a really critical shape. Where else, if you go where communities are taking care of the forest and managing and doing the patrolling and controlling the fires, you have a more preserved forest and the ecosystem integrity.
It's above the ones you find in unmanaged protected areas. So I think the relationship goes both ways. If we have people linked to nature, nature will be better because right now it's hard to think of a pristine forest without people. Yeah.
Matt Whyte
Is Costa Rica having become this eco tourism destination? I would imagine that comes with some complexity, right? Like, not everyone is totally down for the eco tourism cause, right?
Debi Nova
Yeah. I mean, we realized a few years ago that our biodiversity and our nature was an attraction that could bring money into the country. So I think the challenge is, how do we preserve that? Protect it, and let people come and see it and enjoy it and learn from it without, you know, destroying it. Because I think that's what I see.
And going back to the Caribbean, when I went to record the second time we went, we went to the same place and came to the surprise that somebody was cutting those big, you know, Centenario was like the big 100’s of year old trees chainsaw sound, you know, to build a house. And it was so painful I had to leave.
So that is definitely the challenge. How do we continue to expose people to the beauty and the benefits of nature without destroying it? I don't know what the answer to that is.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Yeah, and I think we should also look to what was before, you know, like to to reach where we are right now. There were major changes, you know, protected areas were created where people were leaving already. So back in the 70s and even a little before, there was a big transition. And that required major sacrifices for some families.
And at that moment, a lot of people were hesitant of the impact, the positive impact.
Matt Whyte
So 50 years ago, it was already becoming.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Well, there's some really emblematic national parks I Corcovado National Park, we just turned 50 years old last year. We can talk about Corcovado in the Osa peninsula. It was people living on mining, cattle ranching and agriculture there, but it was in the core of a peninsula that hosts a great percentage of the biodiversity of the world. So it was declared a protected area and it required removing people.
And that was really shocking. There was a lot of opposition. A lot of people were making jokes that it was not going to work. Back in the 80s, there were cartoons of Costa Rica, like protecting monkeys and completely broken in the financiala. Other countries in Central America, they were going for the agribusiness as the main thing. Costa Rica was just slowly turning into a different direction with, of course, with a cost on people.
If you fast forward to today, a lot of the kids of those guys who were kicked out of that land, they have better incomes. They live a more relaxed life through ecotourism and nature has been able to recover. There's still a lot of challenges because tourism is not for everyone and we can not forget about our farmers. And that's where the coexistence element come in.
How do we make sure that we can share this space and time with nature? Doesn't matter what we do if we're a musician, if we're a farmer, if we are a driver, how do we find win win situations between nature and us? And that's where Costa Rica is right now.
Matt Whyte
And I got the sense, because a lot of your work is focused on protecting tapirs. Yeah. And so they kind of are like a they tell a larger story about the complexity of the relationship between animal human and, and habitat. Yeah.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Yeah. I think, you know, I can talk for like six hours.
Matt Whyte
What's a tapir?
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Yeah. Yeah. Let's start with that. This is the largest mammal we have in the whole near tropics. So it weights around 500 to 600 pounds. It looks like, Rhino. It's related to the rhino. So it has a long trunk. Aside from elephants, they're the only animals that can have a muscular nose that they use as an arm.
They pull down fruits and leaves. They're completely herbivores. And I have to say, they're super gentle. They they're they're gentle giants in the forest. And they have been with us for millions of years to the point that they have no wild predators. So they they think that the predators there, they were close to be extinct. And by humans, of course.
Matt Whyte
For food?
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Food but mostly because of habitat loss. And, you know, that's why I always say the most powerful action any human can take to protect tropical nature is stop eating beef. Beef was the main reason why they were going down, you know? But tapirs also tell a really nice story in Costa Rica, Tapirs have been slowly recovering, especially in those protected areas that were successful and they have been coming out of those protected areas to the landscape where they are now sharing the space with humans.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
So if you are a tour guide, you're super excited to see a tapir. If you're a farmer, a cucumber farmer, you are not as excited. You might be scared because your whole income, meaning your access to food, education, housing will be destroyed by a single animal in one night. You know that complexity around my favorite animal, that duality requires a lot of creativity when you are talking to someone.
Of course, I will never go to a farmer who just lost all of his income in a night to tell him that tapirs are endangered and they are the largest neotropical mammal.
Debi Nova
Yeah, bring me my cucumbers back.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Yeah, he'll be like. It requires a lot of empathy, a lot of listening, and a lot of understanding that it's not only about the animal, but it's also about the relationship of that animal with the people.
Debi Nova
But, I mean, that's happened with all species, right?
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like in our house, you know, geckos, raccoons. Yeah. In the these raccoons, opossums and you know, like what we're looking at right now, like scientifically speaking is that relationship. It's dynamic. It's it's not like Tom and Jerry, you know, like a thousand episodes of them chasing around. It's dynamic. One day we can be in a sweet spot that we are okay.
But then an economic change might cause people going back to poaching or, you know, an increasing the population might go to, to turn those animals into pests. So we have to be really observant on how these relationships are going through. And, if you look in the past, you know, like you used to hear that there were so many jaguars, they were all killed because they were killing the cows.
Then jaguars went down in populations, then recovered again. And now we are over again dealing with the idea of conflict between cattle ranchers and jaguars. So it's not a linear thing. And that's I guess, what brings that fusion between what Debi does, which is looking at the world and finding creativity. To build this song, I have to go look at the world, see a problem, and use my creativity to build a solution.
And that's why, you know, I always say that music. And in conservation science there's so close together.
Debi Nova
But yours is like life and death like you. Yeah, if I write a bad song and I just get like, no it to listen to. But thank you. I appreciate what you're saying, but I think saving a species is so much more important.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
But we can all take part, you know, like, I bet I can tweet, I love tapirs, we got to love tapirs. And you tweet I love tapirs We gotta love tapirs.
Debi Nova
Yeah.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
We can make a competition. Who has more impact? You know, like engaging people.
Debi Nova
And that's where I will give you that. Music is a very powerful channel to communicate, to bring people together. We were talking about it before the episode, like when you are on a on stage and there's a lot of people.
Matt Whyte
12,000, Debi’s last concert.
Debi Nova
12,000 people listening to you, you're like, wow, this is it's it's bigger than all of us. This is all of us together. So absolutely. If you can translate, good message into that mass, we're winning.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
And before you were, you guys were talking about how nature is a muse for for music. Music, for me, was the muse to do what I do today. You know, like when you're a kid and you are in this square minded world, probably full of religion, and, you know, you got to make money in your life, and that's all you what you have to do.
And then you start listening to punk and you're like, well, there's an alternative out there, and I don't have to follow all the rules. Being an outcast is okay. Also, punk is related to nature and being vegan. And so, you know, like a lot of conservation personalities, I bet they have been shaped by the music. They listen to.
So I feel there's a full circle between how arts and creativity and the shape of music reflects in people like us that do conservation science and most more broadly in a general audience. You know, we rewild as an organization. We go to Lollapalooza and some other music festivals, and it's so cool to see how people in the music festival, they go to where we are, and they engage with nature, and they engage about conservation.
They even start asking questions on how can they help, probably people that otherwise would never. It's close.
Debi Nova
For me. Music is a tool to open up your heart. It brings you in touch with your feelings. And I've seen that in myself. And when I play music with with others, sometimes the most squared person in the room will break into tears when they hear a song. So it puts you in touch with your feelings and with your heart.
And when that happens, that's magic. And when it happens at a mass scale, that's that's life. That's really something else is so beautiful. I have a question about tapirs. How long do they live?
Esteban Brenes-Mora
What we know is that they can get up to 44 years in captivity.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
In the wild, they might go around 26 to 30 years.
Debi Nova
Okay.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
And like in the Tapir Valley where we live, there's mamita, who's around 18 to 22 years old, and you can see her age now. So we're really sad to see.
Matt Whyte
She's slowing down.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Yeah. She's skinny, she's pregnant right now. But, you know, it's it's sad to see her go. And she's been super healthy. So we believe they live around 25 years. They are super productive when it comes to babies. If you let them, if they have the right resources, they have one baby every 18 to 16 months.
Debi Nova
One baby, that's.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
The one baby. And they take care of it.
Debi Nova
And are they communicative with humans? Like are they?
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Oh, yeah. I have, you can call me crazy with this story. I'm going to save it. So, mamita, mamita gave birth to Gaia, 17th of March, 2024. Guy I recently turned two years old, and, Donald and I, who's the owner of Tapir Valley? We were. We've been tracking, mamita and following her. And the day she gave birth, we realized.
And we went looking in the forest for Mamita, and we found her like, 2 or 3 hours after she just gave birth. So you have these little watermelons. They call them watermelons because they have stripes. The baby's. And that's. And, Donald and I, mamita really knows, especially Donald. He he she knows the smell of Donald and the voice of Donald.
So we stand in front. The baby was still wet, trying to look around, and then mamita looked super tired, you know, giving birth, not feeding. Probably in two days. Not drinking water like in two days. When she smelled us, she came closer to us, sniff us, then went back to the baby and literally she pushed the baby in front of us.
Debi Nova
Come and take him. I need to rest!
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Yeah. Donald and I we were like, shaking and crying.
Debi Nova
So I guess it's, it's across the species, like, please help me!
Esteban Brenes-Mora
It is hard to explain. And she just left probably. She went for food and, like, spa time. And then half an hour later, she came back and she was like, hey, now you give me my baby back.
Debi Nova
Oh my God.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
And we left. And, you Donald and I we were all, you know, like, what was this like, what just happened? No one's going to believe this.
Debi Nova
That's so beautiful.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
It was beautiful. Yeah. So I do believe animals, they do more and do feel more than we, actually.
Debi Nova
Oh, yeah.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Give them credit for.
Debi Nova
I mean, I'm completely connected to my dog. She knows everything about me. Yeah. Have you ever played music for the tapirs?
Esteban Brenes-Mora
We have never played music for the tapirs. No, I, I think I think that the I you know, they, they don't see well so they rely a lot on under listening.
Debi Nova
Okay.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
And on their smell and their touch. So I did have the fantasy of, of a punk band called the Dantas when I was a teenager. And, you know, the personality, they're like.
Matt Whyte
What's that mean.
Debi Nova
Dantas. Tapirs. I don't know how to say that in English.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Okay. Tapirs but is dantas is the name in Spanish. But, you know, they're like, I had a book. They were like the weirdest and ugliest animals of the world. And the tapir was there. So, you know, they were pretty punk. Okay. But I think they will react to music because they, they really rely on listening.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
They, they have whistles. So my brother's a musician and he made a song with, with one of the whistles of the tapirs.
Matt Whyte
What, he sampled it or something?
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Yeah. We, we we went I had some recordings from my camera traps.
Matt Whyte
I can't resist. I need to know why do they prefer to defecate in water?
Esteban Brenes-Mora
That's a good question. We don't even know, there for sure. But there's a couple of theories they do latrines. So they they they gather all together to poop. Not at the same time, but in the same place. So if you see a tapir pile of poop, you're going to see many around.
Matt Whyte
But it's not in water.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Some of them are in water. And the reason why they do it in water and why they do it all together, they're related. Some people hypothesize that they do it to avoid predation. So if I go and poop here and all my all my fellow tapirs are pooping here, predators will be confused on where else to look and same in water I pooping water, it'll be washed down.
Matt Whyte
I mean, that's why I do it, but.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Yeah, like you don't want to. You do. You want to hide? Yeah. You don't want to be found. But. Yeah, it's it's a it's a big question. And you know, the more you start digging into the poop, you start finding, solving more questions. And, you know, they have a lot of seeds. So they're called the gardeners of the forest.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
So losing tapirs means no forest restoration. Wow. And, no carbon sequestration, no access to water. So there's a cascade effect, and many trees rely on them. So we are studying this special tree that's called that. He got on to that. If we lose tapirs, we completely lose this tree as well. So there's a lot of connections. Which tree? Jicaro Danto.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
And then big tree, from Guanacaste, from the mountains of Guanacaste.
Debi Nova
Jicaros, no?
Esteban Brenes-Mora
It's in the same family of the jicaros, Okay, but it looks like a cucumber.
Debi Nova
Okay. Yeah.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
So it's and it's unique to certain areas of Guanacaste, a mountain range. In re:wild we we released, a video last Lollapalooza, I think, relating how an orchestra or how a band works when they're playing all together. If you remove the bass from a song, the sound is no longer that impactful.
Debi Nova
Dramatically different.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Yeah. And if you remove the drums, it will change everything if you remove the melody. And nature is not different from that. You know, like if we start removing pieces, the sound will not sound the same and meaning that those services will not be the same. And that's why, you know, every species matter, every ecosystem matter. You know that connection between sounds of music and nature functioning.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
It's that analogy is so, so pure.
Debi Nova
Yeah. Well, also a big lesson for us as humans, right? I remember the first time I went to the rainforest as a teenager, it was explained how in the rainforest everything has a purpose. It's a big hole and every piece is a piece of that hole. And every dead tree is necessary for the other trees to live. And the diversity is actually what makes it strong.
Debi Nova
If we as humans were to learn from that and know that what makes us strong is our diversity and the things that make us special, we would be a much better planet.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
I think that, you know, just going out there and paying attention. I think we've been so distracted that we don't pay attention enough to nature, you know, like in, in. And when I say nature is not being in a tropical forest in the middle of Costa Rica, I say being in a park in a city, you know, nature is out there.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
And, if we start paying attention, you start, you start seeing all those tiny, tiny, tiny interactions that I totally agree, you know, like everything is doing something different and they all work together. And, you know, like when I was starting to study biology, I was really disappointed when I heard someone saying like, oh, some things might not have a reason or a function, they just exist.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
And I still argues we haven't figured out what's their function. That's we don't have to be that solver. We haven't figured out what they're doing, and we might not find out until we lose them. We don't want to be in that scenario rather than not knowing, then losing them and realizing. And same happens with diversity in humans. I believe that joy that brings diversity in every single aspect should be replicated everywhere.
Debi Nova
The joy and and also it makes the whole better. It makes the whole stronger.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
And you know something I learn from nature and we can learn a lot from the success story of recovery of Costa Rica's forest, is that it's easier in that complexity, simplicity. It's present, you know, like, and in a way that we might think that nature will never recover from a fire if you give it time and the right pieces are together. A cattle pasture can be turned into a forest in 20 years. Probably one of the most amazing things I've seen. It's in the Tapir Valley. You know, Donald bought that property when it was a cattle pasutre. He was he wanted to go birding there. That was the reason he started rewilding. It and then paying attention to the sounds and to the birds.
And four years ago, we were able to discover one species of frog that only lives there, that he listened to it and he paid attention to nature, and he realized that song he had never heard before. And he went into the water, look for the frog, pull it out and said, like, oh, I don't know, what's this?
Debi Nova
Wow.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
And he started looking for scientists. But scientists were not accepting that that was possible. And until we we came together and I don't know much about frogs, and my ignorance was a blessing there because I told him, I don't know, but I believe you. And we started the process of describing an endemic frog. But, you know, it has everything, you know, like it was a song.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
It was a song that really caught his attention and turn it into a new species that he has been protecting without knowing. So that's something we don't want to lose. We don't want to lose those songs that we haven't heard yet. I always wonder what would happen if The Clash would still playing here, which songs we missed from the Clash.
Debi Nova
As you were talking. For me, it's like it's the same with music. I mean, when there's devas, devastation and oppression, that's when creators tend to write the most amount of songs. That's when it becomes really prolific. It's almost like these little frogs appearing. It's like, are these songs sprouting? So definitely, I think live life always persists.
Matt Whyte
Yeah. And what you were just saying, and it's kind of invites a good opportunity because I need to credit you with the idea for this episode, pointing out to me the overlap between what you do and what you see in your work with the lyrics to Debi’s song. So I'd like to finish by just hearing what you have to say about where you see that resonance between what Debi is singing about.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Well, you know, I, I, I started listening a lot this week and, one of the things that I felt it it's not punk music. I know, I know, I have to say that my most listening artist last year was Olivia Rodrigo. So. So I'm in between, you know? Okay.
Debi Nova
Okay, good.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
But, you know, you just said it, you know, like, it's what I felt. There is that relationship with what I do is the relationship of standing up again and finding the freedom you're looking for. And I think that's nature, you know, like one of the most beautiful things we find in nature are like gaps. You just said it a tree falls down, everyone's concerned about the tree dying, but then there's thousands of seedlings saying, yes, there's light.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
There's an opportunity for growing up. And I think I think that's reflected in your music, like that idea of life happens, life goes on. And then turning those moments into a beautiful thing.
Debi Nova
That's so beautiful to me. The the emotions that are very rich in terms of what how can how they can translate into song is those feelings that are they're not finite. It's bittersweet. It's it's in between. It's it's, the sadness of death, but also the rejoicing and the rewilding. And I hadn't thought about this before, but the chord progression of 2020 has that a little bit because it goes from major minor.
Debi Nova
Major minor has that thing that we're now that I'm giving myself.
Matt Whyte
I will say it's not my song, but it has that same feeling.
Debi Nova
But it's got that in between or that that surprise factor. Exactly. From the major to the minor.
Matt Whyte
And that's exactly what it is. I'm just going to put in this little footnote. Some scientists call that novelty and the effect that novelty has on the brain. They found in stroke victims who can't enjoy release of dopamine and serotonin that we get from exercising. They're finding they can exercise the brain with music, and specifically music that contains that component of novelty, that unexpected like it dilates the pupils.
Matt Whyte
It releases more oxygenated blood into the brain.
Debi Nova
That's amazing. I didn't do it consciously, but yeah, but, I don't think music or nature does anything because it thinks about it. I just think it does it because it feels great.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Or it would work, you know, like evolution works like that. Yeah. It it made me survive. It made me persist. And, I think emotions are quite the same. Yeah.
Matt Whyte
Well, you guys have been tremendous guests. This is my, my, my first Central American interview.
Debi Nova
The next one we're definitely going to to meet the.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Mamita.
Debi Nova
Dantas, Mamita and Gaia.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
I believe they're pretty famous. You'll see them all over the place. Yeah definitely. No you're more than invited. And you know, I come from a musician's family, and I struggle with not being, you know, like, damn it, I have, like, cousins that are way cooler. My brothers way cooler.
Matt Whyte
I think Debi and I probably both disagree.
Debi Nova
I mean, you just you just babysat a baby [...] Danta.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
Yeah, it’s a different kind of.
Debi Nova
I don't know who is cooler, man.
Esteban Brenes-Mora
But, you know, there's the synergy between music and science and conservation that really kind of brings that undone. Things in my life can fulfill that. So I really appreciate you being here. Thank you, thank you and thank you. That was amazing.
Debi Nova
Buenas dias, gracias.
Matt Whyte
Be sure to check out Debbie's latest album, Total Poetry Convert Tears Say and Concern, and stay tuned for upcoming releases by visiting her website, DebiNova.com and following her on social media at Debbie Nova. You can learn more about Esteban's work by checking out his page on the rewild site. rewild.org/team/esteban-brenes-mora. Sing for science is co-produced by Talkhouse and made possible in part by a grant from the Simons Foundation.
Our music is by Panorama. Video editor and social media director is Bailey Constas. Location, camera and sound by Thomas Poole at Botanica Films. And our digital producer is Keenan Kush. If you like, sing for science, the best way you can support us is to give us a review. Tell a friend about the show and subscribe on your podcast platform of choice.
For more information, please visit sing for science.org and follow us on social media at sing for science. Thanks for listening.